Talk:Ablative generator/archive
Previous discussions from the former armor hull generator and hull armor article talk pages. Purpose The purpose to which ablative armor hull was developed is to defend against the Borg. "Heavy enemy fire" is completely vague and does NOT specify which threat, i.e. Borg attack. : Came up with a better idea to provide an even deeper insight into the reasoning of the armor. I hope this will be sufficient. Enzo Aquarius 01:39, 12 Mar 2005 (GMT) :: Sorry but I don't Agree with Enzo Aquarius since Admiral Janeway Shuttle was equipped with the same armor and it protected her against Klingon fire. :::We don't know that ablative armor was developed to defend against the Borg, what we know is that the ship was developed the defend against the Borg. For all we know the technology was developed to defend against the Romulans or the Breen. In fact we are not even sure that all vessels of the class are so equipped. In the captain of the mentions how the Defiant being equipped with ablative armor was unknown even to Starfleet operations, which suggest that all Defiant class vessels were not similarly equipped.--Illwill 09:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC) Alternate Timeline Events A portion of this article should be in italics. Anything pertaining to the alternate timeline (Creation of armor, use, etc.) is done in italics. Take a look at certain articles like those of a number of references for . --Enzo Aquarius 02:15, 12 Mar 2005 (GMT) :I agree; however, this technology has become part of the "normal" timeline and in fact was used by the "real" USS Voyager during the series finale. Also, being part of the "normal" timeline also means that it exists in the present and isn't speculated to occur in the future (because it already has occurred). Ablative armor Not to be confused with the ablative armor used on the USS Defiant and USS Prometheus. There was no explicit verbal differentiation between the two technologies mentioned in "Endgame". '' :My guess, after what we saw on-screen, is that the armor itself is roughly the same. The difference is the generators. The ''Defiant has a given thickness of ablative armor. If her shields are gone, each enemy shot will reduce the thickness on the hit spot. If the thickness is down to nil somewhere on the hull, the ship is vulnerable. :By contrast, in the futurist technology, the generators can "rebuild" the armor as soon as it's weakened - yet another application of replicator technology. :Like with Transphasic torpedoes, this technology seems to make Starfleet invulnerable. -- ::Considering what is present in the broadcasting material I think this conclusion can be drawn: ::*The armor defends against most or all types of disruptor weapon (we have not seen it take a torpedo hit), like the Borg or the Klingons. ::*In endgame when the armor was mercilessly hit with Borg attacks, mentions where only given in regards to select sections of the armor actually being affected (i.e. The port-side armor failing, for instance). Never was there a mention of the armor to being regenerative (I assume this because it armor was already failing and coming off-line at the end of the Borg attacks, they would probably have tried used this ability well in advance). ::*Given the name of the armor itself, from the name of the concept drawing of the shuttle mentioned (supposing that the shuttle armor and Voyagers' armor have both the same technologies) it is possible to assume that "Nanotech Molecular Armor" is simply a replicated (because whole sections of armor can be seen being produced at once from "nothingness") substance, made with molecular nano-machines a.k.a. "smart molecules". -- Holographic? My theory on the ablative hull armor on Voyager from Endgame was that it was based upon holodeck technology, perhaps a variation of the Doctor's mobile emitter. How else would it be able to be added and removed on the fly? Well, replicators can deconstruct what they replicate, but the energy and matter stores requirements would logically be rather immense, if it used replicator technology..while the Doctor's mobile emitter could keep him solid and mobile for an unknown, but fairly lengthy, time on a fairly minuscule power supply. Of course, this wouldn't *preclude* the use of replicator technology in addition to the photonic projections... The Ablative Hull Armor would thus be essentially 'scales' of overlapping force fields, with replicated armor plates underneath, or perhaps sandwiched between multiple layers of force fields. Of course, that's just my own theory, and that and twenty bucks might get you latte at Starbucks..if you have a coupon. - KendraKirai :The thing is about that, while holoprojectors sound all nice and good here, they don't actually work under fire from multiple Borg vessels. The working theory that I have for you is that the armor is ablative depleted-nutronium with a heavy SIF running through it and a Borg regeneration matrix and possibly other Borg influences. The armor is stored in massive replicator and pattern buffers that were visible on the ship's hull. 09:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC) ::Definitely not holodeck technology. If you would note every hologram we've ever seen from the alien door in the menagerie to the Doctor himself. Energy weapons always go right through them. On top of that what would be the point of making the armor visible. Its a waste of energy. The reason they are visible is because they are real. I don't know if its replicated or created by nanoprobes but its real.--Illwill 04:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC) :::not necessarily true, if it were possible to bend solid light so that a hologram can coporealize an object, then it would be logical to assume that it would be possible to bend the light in a hologram so that no objects can pass through them, this would more than likely include light energy from disruptors, or photon torpedoes. However, multiple technologies would be necessary for a holographic layer of ablative armor to be made incorporeal enough to withstand the barrage of weapons fire that was evident in endgame. keeping in mind that in First Contact, Captain Picard was able to kill two Borg drones using holographic bullets. Therefore, his those solid light based projections were able to penetrate borg adaptive shielding, than wouldn't it be possible to use holographic plates specifically designed to not allow damage from energy based weapons. connection? the 'star jellies' in the pilot of TNG had some form of deployable armored hull. IIRC in the episode, we see one 'dispel' this armor, where it fades to grey and vanishes, leaving only the creature. the effect is similar to the creation of the armor on voyager, only whole cloth instead of piecemeal. those creatures had a natural ability to replicate things, as well as alter the structure of things already in existence. could there be a connection to the Ablative armor generators? :The star jellies had more of a "natural camouflage" -- remember they could turn parts of themselves into bowls of fruit and funky colored fabric. I'd consider them to be more along the lines of shape-shifters that having "Generated armor" -- the thing just made the outside of itself look like a starship or starbase, and took on a different texture. it altered its own interior in a number of ways too, remember. -- Captain M.K.B. 06:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC) Article Re-Naming I think that in order to prevent the confusion of the USS Defiants ablative hull, with this kind of hull, I think that we should re-name this article so that it accurately reflects the futuristic and obviously different nature of technology. (i.e. Nano-tech Molecular Armor Plating). :The armor name isn't just made up. Janeway referred to the armor as coming from "ablative hull armor generators" so that's why they're called that. If someone sees the episode and they type in "ablative hull armor" that's what they get. Every time the Defiant's armor was referred to it was called "Ablative armor" plain and simple. They have a different name so they get a different page. Besides, we're not even sure if nano-tech has anything to do with them, we can't just rename the page based on a guess.--Illwill 05:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC) ::Unless you consider the shows head designer to be simply making up non-sense names for the good of his health (which virtually all star trek jargon is based on), the name is perfect for the subject and technology that it is based on. What we are talking about is the addition/subtraction of the word "hull" from the phrase ablative hull armor. That is the only descriptor word in that particular phrase, that sets it apart from a less-futuristic counterpart. If there is a disagreement with this issue, I implore you to consider adding the phrase "nano-tech molecular armor plating" at least in brackets next to the name. :::But again, the term "nano-tech molecular" was never referenced, and adding it to the title would be presumptuous. That said, however, there never was a specific reference to "ablative hull armor"... in fact, the only reference to the word "ablative" is "ablative generator". The rest of the time, it's just called "armor technology". So, a name change may very well be in order, but it will have to be changed to something established in the episode itself (or at least the script). --From Andoria with Love 03:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC) Given that the purpose of this Star Trek archive is to convey accurate, cannon information based on broadcasted material I shall digress my statement in regards to the re-naming of this article into its conceptual name - with only a few prerogatives - I think that not only is an appropriate re-naming in order for this article, whatever that may be, but that the obviously non-cannon element at the end of this article be deleted as well. This is due to the fact that the conceptual name is given credence there specifically. However, if I may say one last thing: The conceptual name is the only thing aside from the observed elements of the armor itself that can describe what could possibly compose this technology. -- :::: Given that the technology had technically not yet been invented Starfleet could be refraining from using the technology until they reach the year that it was supposed to be created or until they can understand how it is created without the use of backward engineering therefore they are not tampering with the timeline by giving more advanced technology to lesser species ie them. ---- According to : "The primary battle systems [of the Prometheus] include regenerative shielding, ablative hull armor, multivector assault mode." According to another reference in : The Borg sphere was referenced as a "long-range tactical vessel; transwarp capability; ablative hull armor." That reference to "ablative hull armor" (the title of this very article) should be linked here with this article content being moved elsewhere so that the aforementioned reference can be directed to the proper article. --Alan 23:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC) :I've seen these episodes and I see your point. However I still think that we can't just go around and rename pages based on non-canon material. The unique thing about this armor as opposed to the one mentioned in those two episodes is that it is generated on the fly. Also, we never hear the words "ablative hull armor", Janeway says "ablative generators". I think a better solution might be to merge this article with "ablative armor hull generator" article. Hence, we would consider this armor to be a type of ablative armor, but still allow it to be closely related to the generators and hence the future.--Illwill 05:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC) Where did I suggest we "go around and rename page based on non-canon material"? The title of this article and the contents within clearly contradict the meanings and uses I listed above. If the same terminology was used to describe two different things, in this case, the next best course of action would be to disambiguate the terminology...ablative hull armor (2370s) and ablative hull armor (2400s)...or something to that effect. (Otherwise, there is still the implication, based on nomenclature alone, that these are the same things, with a significant degree of evolution between the two designs). --Alan 17:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC) Where does all the added mass go? It seems to me that an unreasonably large amount of raw material would have to be dematerialized for recomposition if the armor system is indeed replicator-based. Even a layer of armor as thin as a single coat of paint, when applied to a ship as large as Voyager, would constitute a considerable dead weight when undeployed--and the armor in Endgame looks to be considerably thicker. Re-replicating the armor whenever a ship enters a combat situation would create a tremendous energy drain at a highly critical moment. Leaving the armor in place and regenerating it only when damaged seems a much more reasonable proposition. I suppose the aspect of the concept that irks me the most is that its introduction implies that, by the close of the 24th century, Starfleet will have made such advances in replicator technology that scenarios that once carried considerable dramatic weight will become trivial. Transphasic torpedoes are one thing; it can be conjectured that advances in shielding would render the advantages of their apparently interphase-based chicanery moot, but Batmobile armor? Come on. 05:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Meaning of "Ablative" Forgive me if one of the various related articles mentions this, but as a student of Latin, the use of a Latin grammatical case here caught my eye. The ablative noun case is very versatile, but one of its main uses is to describe origin or movement away from the subject. Apparently, "ablative" can also refer to ablation, "the dissipation of the heat of re-entry of a spacecraft," so this name must mean that this armor "dissipates heat," and presumably other energy from attacks. - 22:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC) Phaser use Are we sure the phasers wouldn't work with armor deployed? While we did never see it, at least Voyagers main Dorsal phaser strips appear to be covered by what could be another hatch similar to the one that covered the torpedo launchers. Plus since this is a defensive system designed to protect the ship in combat, it wouldn't make much sense to eliminate a ship's primary weapons. Granted Janeway brought those transphasic torpedoes, but phasers could have come in handy. I'd say it's at least possible that some of the phaser arrays could be exposed and fired. :I agree – 22:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC) ::I would like to say that even if the phasers were to be capable to be used they would not work against the Borg. And that's where this armor is based upon. (to fight I mean) But then again, against other enemies phasers could be useful. ::: perhaps the phaser arrays would be usable at a later date, but at the moment only torpedoes can be used. Plus it would also be logical to assume that as that type of technology advances one day in the near future it may be possible for the phaser arrays to be used, while the ship is armored. Borg Assimilation? Just want to know if in Endgame pt2, was it clear that the Borg assimilated this technology? I understood that moments before the Borg queen told future Janeway that they, the Borg, did assimilate it. but Did they retain that knowledge even after the warp conduit and every borg was destroyed? ... Since I don't know the answer, I just want to note if some else does, could they please add something to the article about it please :) :Well, if every Borg was destroyed, as you put it, I doubt it.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC) ::Well considering that the unicomplex was destroyed it is plausible to assume that the Borg's assimilation of that technology were also destroyed in that explosion. the Borg queen was killed in the explosion, alone with every single borg in the unicomplex. they can't use technology if they do not exist can they? Fandom speculation :(Ablative armor was used on the E but not the type Voyager used, perhaps because developing the technology for a ship the size of Enterprise was to daunting in the span of the movies, given the Enterprise was already seen as having the most advanced tech, even with Voyager to reverse engineer it would've taken time to implement the technology.) I've removed the following speculation regarding the Enterprise-E's use of ablative hull armor. --From Andoria with Love 02:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)